Glass, black buttons for black background?

My intent was not to offend and if I did, I apologize. I was not saying that you, specifically, were not a professional designer and of course it’s your job to ask questions. I was merely referring to someone who knows nothing about web design, which is generally our clients, coming to us using the term “Web 2.0”. The concept has to exist somewhere for even them to use the jargon and have a basic idea of “modernized” web design. And the software example isn’t flawed, it’s actually pretty accurate for what the “concept” of the term Web 2.0 signifies. An up-to-date version (or more accurately, thought process) of web development.

As I previously stated, there have been countless articles and books written about it. One of them is a great book titled, Professional Web 2.0 Programming by Wrox Press and it pretty much explains what I talked about earlier. The concept of Web 2.0 being about a more secure, stable web design with a higher degree of user interactivity and high visual appeal, again, I’m just summarizing in a nutshell.

Accessibility and usability as well as cross-browser compatibility have absolutely zero to do with Web 2.0.

Sorry, but yes they do. They are a major component of what the concept truly is. And I ask you this, how can you say that they don’t go hand-in-hand when you’re stating that it doesn’t exist in the first place? That’s like saying eggs don’t exist yet the yolks and whites have nothing to do with the formation of a complete egg :).

Web 2.0 de facto doesn’t exist. It’s a marketing term, nothing more.

I think the original intent of the term wasn’t a marketing term, but I do agree with you that it has become nothing more than that now. Everybody flocked to it because it was the “trendy and cool” thing to do without stopping to grasp what it was all really about. Too be honest, I hate the term Web 2.0 because it simply is nothing more than a catch phrase.

You say it does exist and that there’s even a concept. That’s fine. I could not disagree more and we’ll leave it at that. :slight_smile:

That’s cool, we all can’t agree on everything. That’s what makes us all unique :).

That’s where we differ. A concept does not have to exist for a term to be coined. The illusion of a concept may exist and I do not blame clients for using that term. However, I cannot count the times I’ve heard clients say they wanted a Web 2.0 design and, I can tell you that features, functionality, and design aesthetics could not have been more diverse. There are no components that make a site Web 2.0. If anything that is considered modern can be attributed to being Web 2.0, then that’s evidence to me that there is no underlying concept behind it. There are no specific characteristics that are exclusive, or even partially inherent to Web 2.0. Yes, I do understand that you disagree, but, like I said, the things you attest to being Web 2.0, like usability and accessibility, have nothing to do with Web 2.0 at all, but rather with good web design as a whole.

As I think of it, it’s been quite a few years since I’ve last heard web designers use that term anymore.

I don’t mind when clients say they want a Web 2.0 design, because, as you said, they exclusively mean that they want a trendy design, and the trend changes every other week. Were there a concept, it’d have a face, an idea, a line of thought, some kind of methodology, something that is particular, but it doesn’t …

And the software example isn’t flawed, it’s actually pretty accurate for what the “concept” of the term Web 2.0 signifies. An up-to-date version (or more accurately, thought process) of web development.

It is flawed to me because I negate the existence of a concrete concept. An application has a tangible concept (well, it should have), and version updates denote an upgrade, improvement, or fixing of one and the same application. I don’t see how that can be translated to Web 2.0, but my imagination might be limited here.

As I previously stated, there have been countless articles and books written about it. One of them is a great book titled, Professional Web 2.0 Programming by Wrox Press and it pretty much explains what I talked about earlier. The concept of Web 2.0 being about a more secure, stable web design with a higher degree of user interactivity and high visual appeal, again, I’m just summarizing in a nutshell.

I realize that these exist. I do not negate the fact that the term exists, obviously, and that a market has been established for it, but to me that’s nothing but a marketing scheme, because it does not introduce a new concept, nor does it introduce anything that didn’t exist before. Instead, it lumps a few components into one basket and slaps the label “Web 2.0” onto it, whereby those components comprise something else every time, depending on the agenda.

Sorry, but yes they do. They are a major component of what the concept truly is. And I ask you this, how can you say that they don’t go hand-in-hand when you’re stating that it doesn’t exist in the first place? That’s like saying eggs don’t exist yet the yolks and whites have nothing to do with the formation of a complete egg :).

No, if took your metaphor and based that on what I said, then it would have to be: “Eggs don’t exist, therefore yolks and whites don’t exist”. But that’s not what I said or implied. Accessibility is a concept. Usability is a concept. These two concepts have existed for ages and have nothing to do with Web 2.0. That’s all I meant to say.

And indeed If you look at sites that label themselves Web 2.0, you’ll find that these sites are the worst in terms of accessibility, usually don’t work without JS enabled, and are highly resource-intense, so quite the opposite. I’ve never seen a good designer/agency website use that term anywhere in their sales pitch, not even the “big” designers.

I think the original intent of the term wasn’t a marketing term, but I do agree with you that it has become nothing more than that now. Everybody flocked to it because it was the “trendy and cool” thing to do without stopping to grasp what it was all really about. Too be honest, I hate the term Web 2.0 because it simply is nothing more than a catch phrase.

Yes, I dislike it as well and wished it were never coined to begin with because it’s entirely useless, the components arbitrary, and nothing but a synonym for trendy design that will mean something today and something entirely different tomorrow.

As Kohoutek says, clients can mean anything and everything with the phrase “Web 2.0.” I might know what I think a client means when she says it, but not being a mindreader, I might be wrong, and have been before. The posts on Clients from Hell are loaded with chunky, chewy “Web 2.0” goodness. :slight_smile: Not to disparage anyone, or to come running to the defense of a fellow advisor (believe me, she can handle herself, she doesn’t need me to come running to her defense!), it’s just true.

Oi vay! :D.

I agree that there is no concrete, physical structure to define what Web 2.0 is and I agree that, as I stated earlier, there’s as many opinions and thoughts to what that is as there are as many rocks in the river. They are endless, unorganized and based on misleading information for trend purposes. But, there’s the but lol, I still believe the general concept of what the term was originally meant to mean was simply that web design had a new and improved methodology behind it.

The Clients from Hell is funny. I have my own horror stories when it comes to hellish clients. Here’s a couple:

  1. I once had a client that wanted me to build her a website (with full functionality is how she put it). So, after a long and lengthy conversation, I was finally able to determine what she meant but “full functionality” (A custom PHP news system w/ MySQL DB storage, client registration, file uploading etc., etc.) and went right to work. The website took about a week to create, after all was said and done because of everything she wanted. The problem came when it was time to pay for the job. Instead of paying what she owed, which was a little over three thousand, she tried to re-negotiate with this, “How about instead of paying for the website you built, why don’t I just pay you $100 and you just give me a copy of your work?” Needless to say, this client-professional relationship ended on a sour note when I flatly refused her request :D.

  2. When I was a computer tech for a local business back-in-the-day, there was this old guy that repeatedly called for tech support after buying a computer from our store before finally coming into the store. The problem was he kept saying that his new computer did not work. No matter what he did, it would not turn on. I tested the computer in the store and it turned on with no problems and it boot right up. The man was happy his computer worked but he “swore” that we were taking advantage of him and it was all a scam. He left with his computer and within hours, he recalled the store and again was adamant that his computer was broken. He was pretty belligerent and hostile and was screaming that “his [bleep], [bleep] computer did not work!” He returned to the store angry and wanting a refund. I again hooked his computer up and turned it on. Same thing, it booted up just fine. Clearly convinced that we were scamming him because he was “old”, he had me show him step-by-step what I did to turn it on. So I showed him. During the hooking up process, I got to the part where I plugged the tower into the electrical outlet and he started to demand I explain to him what I was doing followed by a few expletives and more accusations. So, being the good, patient tech I was (lol), I explained to him that I was plugging the computer in because it needs power to turn on. His embarrassed reaction, “Oh, I didn’t know that. I thought it ran on batteries.” Long story short, he wasn’t plugging it in :D.