You didn’t read my post, did you? People are going to go for the quick and easy (and cheaper) method unless you can show them a measurable/quantifiable benefit. And just talking won’t work - you’ll need to SHOW them. Which means a prototype of some kind.
If you just talk the talk without having a way to prove what you can do, then you’re going to get nowhere because people are going to think you’re scamming them…
[quote=“mikey_w, post:20, topic:196589”]
How about answer my original questions/concerns stop focusing on the money part?
Here’s a clue…
…
Has the web design/development world been reduced to templates?
[/quote]I rather thought I’d already answered that in post #5…
Yes, I read it. And you aren’t following me.
I can mock things up now. I I took the time, I could build a working site that was both sexy and functional. (And I’m sure it wouldn’t take too long to do a basic RWD with JavaScript…)
Problem is that would take lots of time both for a prototype and the real site. And it just seem to me that people won’t pay for these things.
Maybe it is because I know hw complicated programming is, but I think a lot of people out there think site’s like SitePoint and Discourse were build in a week. (We all remember how fun the migration was, right?)
Will people pay for a site that does something versus just being pretty?
And will they pay a reasonable amount for it?
I am skeptical.
I would be willing to lower my standards substantially and work for $25-$30/hour right now, but I sure as hell am not building websites for $10/hour like my latest client wanted!
Someone said last week that only large companies will pay for functionality. They could be right!
Are you doing something else at the moment earning more than $10/hour? At least that would bring some money in and may get you more work.
Depends on the day…
But I shy away from these types of clients because they often go from $10/hour to “I am short on money right now, so…” or “I never said I would pay for that!” to “This is taking you way too long, so I can’t pay you all of the hours you worked.”
(Doesn’t it strike anyone as being a bit perverse that people will pay an illegal immigrant $12-$15/hour for yard work but they complain about web design, web development, architecture, database design, programming, business analysis, testing, etc costing that or less? I think people in India even make more than that?!)
A few weeks ago I had one of these clients and got stiffed for 21 hours. That is time I could have spent learning RWD or JavaScript and kept some of you at bay!! 
Cheap people are always cheap, and I am learning the hard way the kinds of people to best avoid.
It sounds like you could benefit from improving your business plan.
eg. instead of working per hour consider working per contract - a contract with everything spelled out in detail ahead of time. Then ask for a percentage of the total agreed upon amount at certain “milestones” - starting with a “down payment” before you begin working.
Make certain the contract binds both you and the client. Don’t allow for uncompensated scope creep or undue delays caused by the client failing to provide content etc.
As for “all the sites” don’t be blinded by the majority, find your target “niche” and market yourself to it.
Unless someone wants a 1-3 page vanity website, I guess I always thought US$2,500-$5,000 was a decent starting price for a website.
That might include things like:
When I called around some other places, these rates seem competitive.
Great, now I need an attorney! 
Well, one of my recent gigs was for a fixed amount - assuming 40 hours to complete. But after meeting in person and then having to return home, this person started adding things on and on. Now I could have refused, but I feared not getting paid. he did pay me in full, but for 50% more work.
Yes, a signed legal contract would have prevented scope creep, but I don’t know that I’m confident enough to write something like that and have it stand up in court.
Even if I did have it, contract do NOT equal getting paid.
For now, I have been trying to find people I trust enough where a gentleman’s handshake is enough.
I have no issue with contracts, but it introduces even more complexity for someone who is getting yelled at enough for not spending time on RWD and JavaScript! (Of course you have no sympathy, I know!)
Seems you are still thinking in terms of competing against agencies that have teams of employees.
As I said a few weeks ago, I think you are spreading yourself way too thin.
Even if you could do all of that - Content writer, Photographer, Sys OP, SEO, etc. etc. you will not be able to compete time-wise unless you sub-contract out. Which is a lot more involved to get right compared to a single contract.
We agree!
(Then again, where do you think I get that from? Seems like someone on SitePoint is always yelling at me because I have yet to learn and master: RWD, JavaScript, Photoshop, MVC, OOP, etc.)
Maybe if I didn’t live in a 3rd-world country (e.g. USA) where it takes the impossible to survive, I could back off. But it seems like if I don’t master all of these things I don’t stand a chance.
It has always hurt me that I never get more credit than I do. I bet you I am about as well-rounded and multi-talented as most people here.
Yet just yesterday I was turned down for a landscaping job that paid $10/hour because I wasn’t qualified enough.
You just can’t please people (or employers) in the modern world.
On one hand I feel like I am really close to a “break-through” as far as work and starting my own business go. And on the other hand I feel like I am a few weeks away from demise.
FWIW, the reason I don’t have my website done is because I spent all weekend watching videos on RWD and looking at websites and trying to write a business plan/strategy for what I’m trying to do.
Instead of forcing things, I decided to back off, take a breather the last day or so, and hope to get it done very soon. Then again, I can’t afford cards or hosting so maybe it wasn’t meant to be right now?!
And THAT is a lot of what I was talking about above - not what @TechnoBear was ragging on me for.
Yeah, I have major money issues right now. But that isn’t my biggest fear. My biggest fear is figuring out how to compete with websites that people buy for $1,500 and yet realistically cost $15,000 to make.
My first client started out great and was very profitable. But then later on, I really lost my *ss when I started writing all of the copy/articles and doing the photography and editing and so on.
It take as much or more effort to fill a website up with quality content as it does to code it. And I think people should pay me for that as well even though they don’t think so.
I am sure there is a way for me to make $100,000/year doing this - especially RWD - but I can tell you I haven’t figured out the right business/sales approach yet!! (And learning JavaScript is the least of my worries right now!)
I can understand and relate to your not wanting to be “under-employed” - but sometimes that beats being “un-employed”.
I don’t need to hear “I can’t have a website” - there is no excuse for anyone working in web dev to not have one. Maybe you’ve sold yourself on this but you can’t sell it to me and I doubt clients will buy it either.
No credit card? I never use one. I have a personal checking account. I’m certain your local bank would be happy to set one up for you.
Get yourself a ton of coffee, pull a few all-nighters, and get to it already.
Sorry to be harsh, but from what I’ve seen here for all the time and thought you’ve put into discussing "what if"s and "yeah, but"s you could have been done long ago if you had gotten around to taking the first step.
As for clients, that is what the contract is for. Explicitly specify the things you are taking responsibility for and those you are not taking responsibility for. Explicitly specify what is required of the client to provide and the time frame allowed for them to provide it. Explicitly state that anything falling outside of the contract will require renegotiation.
We aren’t telling you to learn them all. We are telling you to learn one or the other.
I said Photoshop because I think it would be best (my points advocated you not having to do any more coding.)
JS/RWD is for continued web development.
The MVC/OOP is not necessary, although it would improve code quality / a lot of things (I haven’t seen anyone really seriously recommend you learn this considering your circumstances. So I consider it a moot point, but for arguments sake, let’s include it in this, shall we?). You seem set on continuing your coding path, so I don’t see anyone recommending anything else other than RWD / JS.
It’s you spreading yourself too thin from there, if you want to do graphics + content + seo. That is the caveat.
For most small businesses, it’s more than enough to get an “instant” site on something like Squarespace. It’s vastly cheaper than hiring a freelancer to do it. That market is quickly dying, and I wouldn’t advise a small business to hire a developer these days.
So how to make a living in web design/development? You really have to upskill these days, and be able to offer more custom programming services that serve the needs of companies needing more than the cheap, off-the-shelf options like Squarespace.
Yeah, not from designing small business sites in the old fashioned way.
But how does a company of 1 entice anything than a small company to hire me?
What is the “old-fashioned way”?
Getting a mom-and-pop client, designing a $5000 website for them … etc. If I were them, unless I needed a highly customized solution, I’d just get a Squarespace site. Much cheaper and quicker, with built-in functionality, nice responsive themes etc.
And how much would you spend doing that?
Who’s “you” in this case? Do you mean the business owner? They can just sign up, pick a theme, insert their content and they’re done. It only costs a few bucks a month, for a nice-looking site. I don’t think freelancers can compete with that, even if we can do something better.
You got it.
So you think things are that abysmal when it comes to getting money out of small businesses?
Pretty much, yes. Personally, I think that a small business that hires a freelancer these days to get a $5000 site when they just need something simple hasn’t done their homework and is getting fleeced.
I nowadays point people to these options and they never come back. So unless they need something very specific that an off-the-shelf option doesn’t offer, I think it’s not really ethical to do these jobs—unless you’ve at least laid out the options to the client. Thats why I’ve pretty much moved out of this line of work, as the more high-end programming is not my thing.
I thought you did this for a living? Are you saying you quit being a web designer/develoepr over this very topic? 