Notice: This is a discussion thread for comments about the SitePoint article, Introducing Joomla.
It would have been useful (for me anyway) to do a comparison between Joomla and Drupal. I'm at that stage now - I would have dived in a long time ago, but still can't make up my mind.
Joomla - Easy to use, looks good, doesnt create the most 'elegant' code
Drupal - Slight learning curve to begin with, doesnt look as good as Joomla, code created is more elegant...
I'm stuck - any suggestions??
* Completely database driven site engines
* News, products, or services sections fully editable and manageable
* Topics sections can be added to by contributing Authors
* Fully customisable layouts including left, center, and right Menu boxes
* Browser upload of images to your own library for use anywhere in the site
* Dynamic Forum/Poll/Voting booth for on-the-spot results
* Runs on Linux, FreeBSD, MacOSX server, Solaris, and AIX
* Change order of objects including news, FAQs, Articles etc.
* Random Newsflash generator
* Remote Author submission Module for News, Articles, FAQs, and Links
* Object hierarchy - as many Sections, departments, divisions, and pages as you want
* Image library - store all your PNGs, PDFs, DOCs, XLSs, GIFs, and JPEGs online for easy use
* Automatic Path-Finder. Place a picture and let Joomla! fix the link
* News Feed Manager. Choose from over 360 News Feeds from around the world
* E-mail a friend and Print format available for every story and Article
* In-line Text editor similar to any basic word processor software
* User editable look and feel
* Polls/Surveys - Now put a different one on each page
* Custom Page Modules. Download custom page Modules to spice up your site
* Template Manager. Download Templates and implement them in seconds
* Layout preview. See how it looks before going live
* Banner Manager. Make money out of your site
Drupal is pretty much useless if you want "normal" users to update your site imho...
joomla is better but has it's quircks.. just use what suits you best
@pug2112. Not sure what you mean by 'elegant' code. Most of the criticisms of Joomla reflect on versions more than a year old. The new version of Joomla (1.5 series) can produce completely compliant, tableless code.
Joomla allows for "template overrides" which allow you to control exactly how the core markup comes out...so it has flexibility for any user.
There is an html error in the first of your "useful links"
>>> Joomla allows for "template overrides" which allow you to control exactly how the core markup comes out...so it has flexibility for any user.
Except when you want to control the menu's XHTML, from my experience you are stuck with wha Joomla gives you.
I am also willing to bet there is XHTML somewhere in the codebase where it shouldn't be, echo'ing error messages, who knows.
The codebase is complex, confusing and over engineered at almost every angle.
The docs are mediocre at best and the community is mostly designers with very few who really understand the core of the system and how things tick.
The user interface is equally complex, which is a result of the implementors trying to put to much control in the administrators hands (ie: module positioning).
I have used Joomla on a few projects in the last 1-2 years and each time I regret the choice even more. Sadly it still lets me complete most projects faster than the alternatives, such as using ZF, Cake or CI.
It's not really a CMS so much as it is an entire including the kitchen sinks, lighthing, fixtures, wiring, speaker system, etc all tightly coupled and and not very cohesive.
The clients who I've introduced to Drupal hate it. Neither do they like Joomla - too many features that overwhelm the average user who just wants to edit content and drop images into their web pages. That's why I've created my own system that seems to meet the needs of 80% or more of my clients.
It would be nice if Joomla had a "simple" profile that displayed a very scaled down set of admin controls. Or, a configuration page that allows you to display what controls you want to be available.
I've used Joomla a number of times and I have to say code wise it is probably the worst. It amazes me why it is so succesfull! Just look at the code, the hundreds of files, the awkwardness of the class structures.
@PCSpectra and @sitehatchery
It's quite obvious both of you have not even a rudimentary understanding of Joomla, so your comments have no basis in facts, even in versions of Joomla 2 years old, let alone the current 1.5.9 version.
Joomla has frontend and backend access, with various levels for both. You can give a client only frontend access and assign that access as author, editor or publisher. With backend administrative access, you can assign manager, administrator or super administrator. The options available for each level are different. Version 1.6 which is nearing completion will have a much finer control of user access levels. The editor, which the client interacts with the most, can be completely customized, as to what functions are allowed. If you want even more control, you can even customize the administrative template.
Menus can be output in a variety of styles. The most standard compliant is simply a flat unordered list with enough css hooks to style any way you like.
Obviously, any CMS takes some effort to learn and master and the same is true of Joomla. Joomla has an incredible community and the power of the CMS is currently second to none. When 1.6 comes out later this year, I believe that Joomla will be the best general purpose CMS available for designers. Personally, I have chosen to master Joomla, rather than work with a variety of CMSs, as I have found that there is virtually no project it can't handle.
dmwalk, my comment is an echo of three of my clients, recently (two within the last 5 months).
In one instance, I installed Joomla and built a custom template around it. I also modified the core files in several locations to make it behave the way the client wanted. At about 80% completion, the client began trying to put content in. Though I trained the client, he was completely overwhelmed and didn't see how he was going to easily manage his frequent updates with the complicated interface.
Now, you've got to understand, I don't think it's complicated - but I'm a professional programmer. However, I am constantly looking through the eyes of my customers. So, in this particular case, I saw it in the customer's best interest to build something much easier. So, though 80% finished with building his site, I -- upon my own initiative -- built a simple content management system.
I've used this content management system on many websites, and have found the niche of simplicity is an enormous selling point. Joomla! just doesn't fit the bill for these clients. So instead of forcing some program on them (the non-technical type) that they don't like, I've listened to them and created something that they can manage. That's good business. And besides, it cuts down on training tremendously.
You can do it if you know what you are doing, but granted, it's not easy. There are a lot of third party menu modules that give you other capabilities. Even so, the 80/20 rule applies and sometimes no automated system gives you the complete control of an each-page-engineered site - but then the article was about the Joomla CMS, not doing static HTML sites.
All of the error pages and error message styling can be overriden. Obviously we have no control over true PHP error messages
I hear this a lot. Apart from some really old areas of the code base, it's simply not true. Can you give me an example?
I'd argue that is the case for anything. There are a handful of in-demand super experts in the world, but then they've taken the time to pull things apart. You get out of something what you invest in it.
That's the point with Joomla. If you don't want the site admins to have control over the site - don't use Joomla
I think we have an apples and oranges problem here. Those are "frameworks" not CMS's. Joomla also has a "framework" in version 1.5. You build CMS's on top of frameworks. Now I will say that the docs for the Joomla Framework are pathetic in comparison to Zend and Cake - but I'm trying to remedy that.
Joomla includes "a lot". There is a lot of power available out of the box (and I would argue more cohesive and less tightly coupled than most bespoke systems). I understand it's not for every project nor every client (in fact, some clients should not even have a license to drive a computer, let alone a web site). But Joomla is a CMS by definition. Whether you like it or hate it, the fact is (apart from Wordpress) it is the most popular in the world so as an implementer it is wise to try to understand it.
Thanks for your comments though. Appreciate your time.
I don't know Drupal well enough to comment on it, other than I have borrow ideas from how they solve technical coding issues. I also haven't taken the time to invest in learning the art of drupal (sounds like a good name for a web site, hehe) so any complaints I have about Drupal are because I'm ignorant about how to use it properly. That said, I do know that choosing either Joomla or Drupal will give you a solid web site. Both have their strengths and weaknesses but, ultimately, it takes time to invest in one or the other.
Thanks for your comments.
That is actually a great suggestion. Hopefully we'll be in a position in version 1.6 to provide fully "skinable" administrator templates. I'd personally love to do an Admin template that was suitable for pre-schoolers to create web sites. We aren't there just yet, but we are getting close.
I used to use Mambo (joomla before the nasty split). I then moved across to joomla like everyone else. But the much-touted improvements never came along. Joomla 1.5 took so long to deliver that it just wasn't funny!!!! And then, when it did come along, it wasn't that special.
In fact, by the time joomla 1.5 was delivered, there were far better open source options available.
Just my opinion - but Joomla is very much a "has been" piece of software...
Probably right. Which ones did you have in mind that were around at the beginning of 2008?
Some that were available: Drupal, harder to set up, but way more flexible due to custom content types, i.e., you don't need a module for every piece of information that you want to manage with your CMS.
Textpattern, perhaps too simple for some uses. Then, not Opensource, but not that expensive either: Expression Engine.
I'm not sure why we even have a discussion about this. Joomla is the worst CMS available.
Your opinion. Fact is, Joomla is the most popular CMS in the world http://www.google.com/trends?q=joomla,+drupal,+wordpress.
Trends can be deceiving. The best data that we have is that Wordpress has 3.5 times the public facing implementations of Joomla (but that changes dramatically if you look at unique IP's), and Drupal has about half that of Joomla. We think Joomla powers around 0.8% of the internet (so if you know what the total number of sites is, you can work out the approximate number).
While there is certainly a large camp of Joomla, shall I say, dislikers, the data just doesn't support that it's as bad as many people make out. If you are a web-based business looking to settle on a CMS, you simply have to look at any or all of WordPress, Joomla and Drupal simply because of the market dominance of those three. Each of these projects has sufficient critical mass to support a very large base of commercial support and development around them.
As an individual you don't have to like it, but you can't ignore the fact that probably tens of millions of people do use the thing. That's why we are having this discussion
next page →