Who has javascript turned OFF?

[oddz]

@ralph_m

You don’t know that for sure. There are many sites that convey critical info, like disaster warnings. Imagine if that info was only served by JS … and the site was under heavy load because of a spike in traffic … and the content was not loading properly because of all the unnecessary server calls … or the user could only access the site with assistive technology that couldn’t read the JS-controlled content …

The internet is a convenience not a necessity.

@ralph_m

There’s no good reason to abandon the basics of the web just to offer up a fancier experience (which I doubt most people want anyway. As poes said, it’s usually getting something done, or getting some info, that is the goal.) It may be that many users have already determined that your newspaper site is not a good place for them to go for news because it’s inaccessible … so you’d be largely unaware that a potential audience has gone somewhere else. The national news service I use works well with JS off, yet it’s a nice looking site.

Perhaps but until something is said by higher ups I could really care less. I didn’t make that decision and I’ll be damned if I’m going to fix it. Unless “fixing it” means redoing the entire thing. It is difficult to redo a Drupal 6 site w/ over 200 modules ya kno? It sucks but it is partly what I deal with. Not to mention deployed over 16 times for different news papers. Yup… it just sucks and I don’t want anything to do with cleaning up incompetent Drupal developers code unless forced. As long as the higher ups are happy I’m happy.

I agree that in the ideal world sites should function without JS. However, the practical world says otherwise.

[ralphm]

@oddz

The internet is a convenience not a necessity.

I don’t think we can get away with that attitude—at least not for much longer. Many essential services, government information services etc. are going online now and abandoning other means of access. This week in Aus, the company that manages the telephone directory announced that it would sack most of its workforce and pretty much switch to being an online service only.

I didn’t make that decision and I’ll be damned if I’m going to fix it unless we get a budget to redo the entire thing.

Yes, that’s a different issue, and not your problem, as such. This is just an argument of principle.

[ot]

I could really care less.

Aw, that means you really do care. (Perhaps you mean you couldn’t care less. ) [/ot]

[felgall]

@oddz

I agree that in the ideal world sites should function without JS. However, the practical world says otherwise.

No the practical world says that web pages should work without JavaScript - it is only amateur web designers who say otherwise. When a web page/site is designed properly by a professional they do it properly so that the site will still be usable with CSS and images off and works progressively better as things are turned on. Only amateurs jump in and try to drive win a race before learning to drive. Sure the business owner requesting to have the site built may not know the difference but it is a part of the web designer’s job to do it properly so that the owner doesn’t even need to know. If the site is broken without JavaScript it is because the web designer doesn’t know how to do their own job properly. It doesn’t take any longer to create a site that works without CSS, images and JavaScript and works better with them than it does to create a site that requires all of them - the amount of coding is the same, the testing time would be a lot longer when it doesn’t work without JavaScript as a lot more testing would be required as the design is far less robust and far more prone to breaking if there is any error in the code at all.

Now web applications such as Google Docs is a different matter - there you expect that JavaScript is needed because it is an interactive application and not a web page - of course applications like that would work a lot better if Google were to actually employ at least one JavaScript programmer instead of getting the local bus driver to write all their scripts for them while he is stopped at traffic lights (at least that’s how their so called scripts look like they were written). A lot of Google’s applications are actually less broken with JavaScript off than they are with JavaScript on. If you are going to use JavaScript then you need to make sure that it is written to a professional standard otherwise you will end up with a significant percentage of people who have JavaScript enabled but who still can’t use your site.

[oddz]

@felgall

Now web applications such as Google Docs is a different matter - there you expect that JavaScript is needed because it is an interactive application and not a web page - of course applications like that would work a lot better if Google were to actually employ at least one JavaScript programmer instead of getting the local bus driver to write all their scripts for them while he is stopped at traffic lights (at least that’s how their so called scripts look like they were written). A lot of Google’s applications are actually less broken with JavaScript off than they are with JavaScript on. If you are going to use JavaScript then you need to make sure that it is written to a professional standard otherwise you will end up with a significant percentage of people who have JavaScript enabled but who still can’t use your site.

You can say all the bad things you want about their development staff but at the end of the day they work for the top company in the industry. So they *must be doing something extremely well regardless of what it might be.

@felgall

It doesn’t take any longer to create a site that works without CSS, images and JavaScript and works better with them than it does to create a site that requires all of them - the amount of coding is the same, the testing time would be a lot longer when it doesn’t work without JavaScript as a lot more testing would be required as the design is far less robust and far more prone to breaking if there is any error in the code at all.

Alright, well I’m going to tell you to go look-up the drupal modules views and [url=http://drupal.org/project/panels]panels. You think it is so easy than make those modules function w/o JavaScript turned on. Good luck. Maybe not a static site but one based on a CMS containing thousands of individual developers contributed code yes.

[felgall]

@oddz

You can say all the bad things you want about their development staff but at the end of the day they work for the top company in the industry. So they *must be doing something extremely well regardless of what it might be.

Yes they appear to be experts at all sorts of server side languages - but they have next to know knowledge of JavaScript which is why most of Google’s pages work better (or are at least less broken) with JavaScript turned off.

If those particular Drupal modules were created by amateurs then avoid using them and stick with the ones written by professionals Obviously between the thousands of individual developers those without any real web developer knowledge have ruined those particular modules.

[olePhart]

Well it seems it was time to let off a bit of steam as this topic has been done to death so many times before and with the same results.

Since the beginning of time I have turned off certain features in the browser when the modem capacity has been exceeded with fancy web sites. Upgrade the modem and not long after they find something else fancy. Same again now with broadband and it makes you wonder what they can do when glass is finally connected to the home. Since the rich kids have wrestled control of the web development standards it may even get worse because the spoilt brats can do what they like to make money.

Mr felgall you seem to dislike Google and their so called experts (I tend to agree) but you have to understand they are required to get the job done no matter what. They can get away with it because of the allowance to sloppy standards that are still hanging around in web browsers.

One thing that irks me is the quality of the replies to some of the requests that pass through here (and other forums). The request I can understand as they are new and learning the best they can but some off the replies are atrocious. So Mr felgall maybe you could influence some of your fellows experts to lift the game a little by explaining there is such a thing as learning best practices. Newbie’s of any substance will appreciate the feedback especially if reinforced with examples.

Have a good day all…

[oddz]

@felgall

Yes they appear to be experts at all sorts of server side languages - but they have next to know knowledge of JavaScript which is why most of Google’s pages work better (or are at least less broken) with JavaScript turned off.

If those particular Drupal modules were created by amateurs then avoid using them and stick with the ones written by professionals Obviously between the thousands of individual developers those without any real web developer knowledge have ruined those particular modules.

The views and panels modules are two of the most powerful and popular modules within the Drupal ecosystem.

[felgall]

@oddz

The views and panels modules are two of the most powerful and popular modules within the Drupal ecosystem.

That probably explains why so many amateurs have stuffed about with them and broken them for when JavaScript is not available.

[oddz]

By making that statement you are just about saying anyone that uses Drupal is an amateur.

Though maybe I need to make things a little more clear. Both of those modules rely heavily on JavaScript for data entry forms within the admin area. Nothing comes to mind on the front-end that relies heavily on JavaScript. It is merely the forms associated with those modules. Generally the only people who need to modify views and panels will be site administrators, not the entire general population. it would be nearly be impossible to manage all the options exposed by forms associated with those modules without using JavaScript to update things without constantly reloading the page. JavaScript isn’t applied in a lack luster way but used to significantly increase the user experience when building views and panels.

Off Topic:

I don’t know why I’m making an argument for Drupal. Most days I f**kin hate Drupal…

[markbrown4]

@oddz

The internet is a convenience not a necessity.

Disagree http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2011/06/internet-a-human-right/

[James_Hibbard]

@oddz

The internet is a convenience not a necessity

Also disagree: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10461048

Finland … Mmm … Reindeer and broadband.

[xhtmlcoder]

Off Topic:

Be careful with the politics guys.

[Stomme_poes]

@oddz

People can say all they want about this being “bad development” but fact of the matter is people making these decisions wok for some of the largest companies around.

Those of us who bother with accessibility have known since forever that some of the worst code comes from the Big Players.

How you earn your money aside, the assumption that code is good or best practices because “big players” and “large companies” are using it is a bad assumption. The only thing you can truthfully say about it is that their code and their models and their practices are working just well enough for them to manage to earn some amount of money.

That is not, and has never been, a benchmark for things like Good Code or Best Practices. I honestly don’t care if it’s good enough for your day job: the kinds of garbage I’m asked to copy and paste at my work is pretty bad, too. Doesn’t make it Best Practice.

“Amazon is huge, has a bazillion customers, and sells lots of stuff every minute of every day! Therefore, <i role=“checkbox”></i> and similar is Good Code and Best Practice”.

I honestly don’t know anyone (any developer) who would actually believe that statement. Instead, it would be
“Amazon is huge, has a bazillion customers, and sells lots of stuff every minute of every day! Therefore, <i role=“checkbox”></i> is managing to fundge its way into working for a certain (determined by the company) critical percentage of potential customers.” (at the time Derek Featherstone was testing Amazon, this fake checkbox was part of an extended order form. So if the user hadn’t finished a purchase, they’re still considered a potential customer here).

That’s all it means. It half works, or three-quarters works, or occasional blackouts and screwups or any other problems they have as a business are relegated to random little blogs here and there who get little publicity even when it’s outright theft (the link is not regarding code, but simply a particular business practice of a Large, Successful Company Who Manages To Earn Plenty Despite Doing Things Like This).

The “it works or we’d hear it from customers” argument has little meaning: customers are always complaining all the time about everything (legitimately or not), even holding to Will Hill’s 90-9-1 user participation principle, and while companies at times will make changes in response to significant (enough) complaints or money loss, this is not even the driving force for change within any large company, because of the costs involved in changing anything. Instead it’s usually marketing (including user studies, focus groups, introducing new or modified products), law suits, and bad publicity. Not in that order.

[Stomme_poes]

@oddz

Alright, well I’m going to tell you to go look-up the drupal modules views and panels. You think it is so easy than make those modules function w/o JavaScript turned on.

Am I remiss in thinking views and panels are for the admin side of Drupal? As opposed to visitors?

[James_Hibbard]

@Stomme_poes

Am I remiss in thinking views and panels are for the admin side of Drupal? As opposed to visitors?

Nope. Or, at least, that is what I understood oddz to have meant.

@oddz

Both of those modules rely heavily on JavaScript for data entry forms within the admin area.

@oddz

Generally the only people who need to modify views and panels will be site administrators, not the entire general population.

[Stomme_poes]

Well I can certainly see Javascript being… pretty much necessary for something like those, on the admin end-- after all, it sounds like an application.

Applications aren’t documents, they need behaviour to work, and with just HTML/CSS alone the best you can get is the HTML+HTTP going on with forms, and no I can’t imagine something like Drupal’s Admin interface being done like that. I would say it needs Javascript, and probably a lot of it.

[felgall]

@oddz

Though maybe I need to make things a little more clear. Both of those modules rely heavily on JavaScript for data entry forms within the admin area. Nothing comes to mind on the front-end that relies heavily on JavaScript.

Something on the back end that is only going to be used by the person who put it there is a completely different matter from public web pages. The person installing such a script knows if they have JavaScript available or not and can make sure it is turned on for those pages even if they have it off for the rest of the web. My prior comments were made on the assumption that the pages were accessible to anyone since the discussion is obviously about public web pages.

[cydewaze]

I use the NoScript plugin for Firefox at work. Why? Because I need to test websites to make sure they work properly when JavaScript is disabled. At home, JS is enabled.

[ServerStorm]

I have created a plugin that using a quick key I can turn JavaScript on and off. Most times I don’t use JavaScript. I this so nice not getting all the ads, popups, and modal window nonsense. I selectively turn it on in a design that works nicely using Ajax or enables functionality I want to use. I do get caught some times expecting functionality but forgetting to enable JavaScript.

Many sites are just pigs on CPU so on my super smarty pants phone I often disable it.

It is great to turn off during streaming video as you bypass most of the annoying marketing thrown at you.

[ralphm]

Yup, there are lots of good reasons to turn it off periodically. But like you, I do sometimes forget that it is off and get confused! There are convenient dev tool buttons for various browsers for turning it on and off without having to dig into the bowels of the settings.