I think that this discussion is going to be separated into two types of people.
Americans
Non-Americans
Like arkinstall, a fellow Brit, I don’t believe that guns should be available to every one for private use on their own property. I don’t mind the idea of someone being able to use a gun on property that is designated for people to use firearms though (a firing range) as long as guns are kept in and not out.
I live on the outskirts of Bristol, near a couple of farms. When I was younger my Dad took me to see one of his friends that owns a Farm (didn’t run it) and I met the guys son, who decided to go into the Farmers shed and pull out a rifle and play around with it. I don’t know if it was loaded, but he felt it necessary to point it at his own brother, then at me (which he received a busted nose for). To cut a long story short, the kid eventually got busted for shooting an animal on the farm a year or two later.
In many ways I don’t believe that prohibition is the right thing to do, and that in a perfect world we could give people guns and no one would use them. Sadly, we don’t live in an ideal society and regardless of the rules people will get hold of guns and they will kill. I believe they should be outlawed because I believe there would be more ‘accidents’ and woundings if they were legal than not.
In short, I don’t believe guns should be freely available to the public, but I can understand a persons right to bear arms and how it shouldn’t be a government matter.
There are three reasons for wanting a firearm - Attack, Defense and Sport.
Sport - well, the firearms should be restricted and not allowed off property.
Defense - Fighting fire with fire? Barbaric if you ask me.
The main reason for kids carrying knifes these days is defense - and that leads to teenage stabbing records being set year after year - which leads to more kids fearing for their lives so carrying knifes.
Let me reply with a somewhat different point of view and a question.
What is a gun by definition? An inanimate object. It can’t do anything without the help of a human being correct?
So then we have to look at the real cause of gun crimes and accidents, namely people … correct?
I was also really hoping to hear from some people from other countries too … really interested in what certain people from certain countries think.
Again, was this a ‘gun’ problem or a ‘person’ problem. Obviously the kid was never taught safety by his father and secondly shouldn’t have had access to the gun … here I blame the parents (esp the father)
OK, let me show you where I feel this kind of thinking is wrong. There are three states in the US (and one very large city) where owning a gun is next to impossible. I am referring to New York (especially the city), New Jersey, California and Chicago Illinois. Owning, carrying and even buying a gun are so restricted it’s not funny and in these states many types of weapons are illegal to own (things like an AK-47 for example) YET these examples have some of the highest gun violence in the US.
So how in fact did those restrictions prevent crime or accidents? In my mind criminals will get guns whether they are outlawed or not just like they will get drugs whether they are outlawed or not.
I am also VERY curious about ‘gun crime’ in countries where they are heavily restricted or banned as well as places there is little or no restrictions. Did the restrictions (or lack there of) stop gun crime?
Well there is the heart of the matter and in fact I do NOT want to get ‘political’ so I will refrain from commenting.
MY reason BTW for this thread is that this is really the only truly ‘international’ forum I know of. While this topic can be debated to death on a ‘US only’ board I am very curious as to the thoughts and experiences from people all over the world. I’ve been really curious about this for some time now.
I had read about that problem and even saw a show on the BBC about it. To me that just shows one way or another a violent person will find some type weapon some how.
I also really think the problem with the kids is (and a real hot button topic for me) bad parenting. I am the father of a 23 year old. Great kid, couldn’t ask for more … that being said when he was growing up we were strict and we made sure he knew the difference between wrong and right.
I see too many parents that have forgotten about parenting so they can chase the almighty dollar (insert your own currency there please). They have forgotten that being a parent is THE most important job they have. I could rant about that for days but you get the point.
I agree entirely. Guns don’t control themselves and aren’t the problem. It’s those that will use guns to cause harm to others. Take those guns away and they’ll use something else.
I agree that criminals will get guns whether they are outlawed or not, but I still feel that this isn’t a good enough reason for guns to be legal. In a situation like this I feel that there is no strict correlation between prohibition and crime, as there are thousands of other factors in play. A built-up city like New York will always have problems, and no one is able to say whether carrying guns would make it a safer place.
In Britain we have a huge problem with youths and crime, caused (in my eyes) by the class system. We live in a welfare state and many kids (14+) choose to live on benefits, get somewhere to live from the council and raise loads of kids in order to get more money from benefits. When I drive to university I often see a large line outside the post office, where people are waiting for their benefits. For us, this isn’t just a problem of crime, it’s a far greater problem this country faces. If we were to legalise guns then I am positive that kids will use them, due to mentality.
As far as I am aware America is one of very few powerful countries where owning a gun is often legal and a ‘right’. This is why many international users here will be strongly against others owning guns.
I don’t like the way that sounds at all. :mad: Perhaps loved ones and humanity can be protected with fish and chips?
Defense is the Aniti-Victim. I think the Brits should ban knives, then in a few more years they could work on banning other items that can be used to hurt fellow humans ( forks, sticks, rocks, ect… ) Knives don’t kill people, people kill people. The fact that guns are banned ( there ) leads me to belive that there is a lack of self control in the country and that people can not prevent shooting each other.
I’m not going to comment on this thread again. This is a hot bed to get people arguning their points. Everyone has their own beliefs. Good luck to everyone whether you own or don’t. I hope we will never NEED them, only WANT them.
I own many. I frequently carry. I have my CCW.
In closing I believe with the poster above that mentions bad parenting as the cause for almost all the trouble every person in every place experiences.
This thread should be closed as it’s not going to produce anything constructive…
OK, point taken (I intend to be as objective as possible here because I really am interested in peoples thoughts)
But as you mentioned with the kids and the knife problem in UK. So they don’t have access to guns, they use knives instead, do we (as a society) now ban knives? What will they use then … bats? Do we then ban bats? See my point.
The problem (as I see it) is violence in general and here is where I see it coming from:
as mentioned before parenting in this ‘new age’ has become a joke, way too many kids not being taught right from wrong
Far too much ‘glorification’ of violence in the media (moves TV etc)
WAY too much violence in video games.
On point #3 I ready an interesting study. It was by a guy that treated post traumatic stress.
He studied the history of that disease and how it grew over the 60s to today. He stated (and this is a very short generalization) that these games had in fact become so realistic that those that played them were in fact being put under almost the same stress as actual combat soldiers and police officers.
He noted that most government agencies now realize a person has to be ‘debriefed’ and ‘cooled down’ after such an event, something that actually dates back to the American Indians (in this country) where after battle the braves would spend days together discussing the battle and releasing their stress, fear and anxiety about what had just happened.
After studying people who were heavy players of these violent games he started noticing the players showed signs of PTS yet unlike ‘official’ soliders that were given the proper services these players had nothing to release this stress.
I’ll have to find the article, it was a truly amazing read.
No that’s exactly what I don’t want to happen! There are different points of views from all different countries and they should be taken in context to that country.
I see no reason why the topic can’t be talked about logically and with any ‘hissy fits’ … everyone has the right to their own point of view and that should be respected no matter how you feel.
I mean seriously I am a ‘rabid’ supporter of owning them (and I do also carry) and even though it is a hot issue for me I welcome the opposing point of view just because I am interested in hearing it. I’m not here to change anyone’s mind … just here to understand how others think.
I totally agree with you, DC. It’s very interesting to see the views of other people, from all walks of life, from all over the world. To me, it’s awesome that we have such things as forums to collectively come together and share. It’s my understanding that this is exactly what a community is all about.
A right is a moral principle within the context of a social setting. Rights are linked in tandem to ethics and politics, establishing morals among humans. A right is a contract between men to assure equality. No person shall initiate force against another person, if they do so, they have lost their rights.
In my book, when a person attacks you or tries to steal from you, they have forfeited their rights. I would use a gun against such people. I also would use a gun against a government and their agents at a point where they try to take all rights away from me. Human rights and property rights are indivisible. Man can not exist without either of them.
Protection of your life is a basic and moral right, owning a gun as a tool to do so is therefore as well.
Not only is your property protected under the 4th amendment, but they added a whole amendment to protect gun ownership specifically.
Translation: Since we have already agreed that there must be a militia in order to protect our sovereignty, (from enemies both foreign and domestic) we are not going to infringe on the rights of the people (who make up said militias) to own and openly carry guns/ammo.
The problem with gun laws/bans is that criminals do not follow laws (their criminals) so banning/regulating gun ownership does not effect the people that do harm to others using a gun. It only effects law abiding citizens.
So to answer your question I support gun ownership! To add to that, I think it is the duty of all able bodied men (American’s) to own and know how to use a rifle. So if you don’t and are able bodied go buy a gun/ammo for it today, they are flying off the store shelves down here in Texas.
To add to that, nice to see you back around DC, maybe you never left and I have just been missing your posts.
A right does not exist if you live alone on an island as the only human. You do not need a right then. Only in the context of sharing this island (country) with other humans are rights necessary. Those rights are there to protect you from the other person and also to protect the other person from you. It is in your self-interest to honor the right of the other people because that protects you in return.
It is my moral right and obligation to defend myself against an aggressor, even if it is my own government. My life is my highest value I own, therefore my right to defend it is implicit. By owning a gun I have the means to do so.
In the US it is not against the law to own a gun. But let us say that it was. I would consider the law against gun ownership a violation of my personal moral right to defend my most precious thing: my life. Laws are not always rational, and because they are not, it is even more important to have a means to defend against laws that violate your natural rights.
Just because a majority would have decided to outlaw guns does not make it morally right
Don’t worry, I do not take a question as an argument, it is a debate.
Excellent post and very close to my feelings on the subject
Let me put this another way and see what the answer is.
Since it appears we only have guys in the discussion let flip it around.
If your wife, daughter, mother or sister were in danger wouldn’t you want to provide them the ability to defend themselves? My wife never leaves the house unless she is carrying … not that we live in such a bad neighborhood but any place can become a ‘crime scene’ in a matter of seconds. Seeing as how a good bulk of the crimes against women are perpetrated by man isn’t her being armed an ‘equalizer’?
Maybe we are spoiled in this country because these ‘rights’ were laid out by our forefathers but this can’t be the only country in the world that feels this way … just can’t be.
Go to Google video and do a search for Suzanna Gratia-Hupp … and watch her testimony to Congress … speaks volumes!
I look at men and women as man qua man. Therefore both genders have the same self interest to protect against whatever evil is out there. That does not mean that a person should be paranoid, but only acknowledging the reality that it might be So yes, I certainly think that carrying is a good thing.
It is the only country (I think) that has these rights. The founders were very wise men. Slowly the appreciation of those rights is eroding, more and more people are dumbed down by public education as not to see the value in those very rights. With that there is less resistance to the imposed deterioration of the rights of the individual. Group think is filling in and with that the voices that oppose any kind of defense that the individual might want to have. As a group, where the individual is subordinated as only part of the whole, the demand of the majority to melt into the whole is the uppermost requirement. With that evaporates individualism and independence, we become dependent, a herd or swarm or pod. Take your pick
Whoops, now see how these silly usernames fool people?
Besides that I agree with everything you mentioned except I feel most women ARE a target in most criminal minds. Yes both should be aware and prepared but I honestly think women more than men (sorry, my only sexist trait left).
It’s funny, my wife is no ‘pixie’, she is 5’-10" and she has an ‘air’ about her that says “don’t even think about messing with me” but when guys find out she carries they gain a whole new respect for her.
I think we have an equal opportunity here really. A man can be just as vulnerable. I personally have little to fear, I too am very tall (6 feet) and can be quite imposing. Most guys would shrink when I give them the eye But the smaller women, the ones that are perhaps a little shy or hesitant or meek even, are targets of course.
There is more to it though. When you go some place you have to watch out what is going on around you, do not put yourself into a situation where you might become pray. Think in other words. But having a gun handy, not in the purse though, does make for a nice safety factor.
Well its obvious your eyes are WIDE OPEN and I salute you for that.
You are also 100% correct about knowing what’s happening around you, it’s called situational awareness and most ‘victims’ are in fact clueless to what’s going on around them.
Likewise I agree the purse is the wrong move. Heck we had a woman up here about three months ago that had one in her purse and had it in her shopping cart. She left it there while she reached for something (purse open) and sure enough someone stole it. Another case of a person that has no clue the responsibilities of gun ownership.
and lastly only a personal note:
6’?
gun ‘aware’
head on straight
All I can say is GRRRRR (sorry I have a thing for tall women)
(sorry I have a thing for tall women) 