[FONT=“Georgia”]Is this really worth ranting about ?
If you don’t like grey text in websites… don’t use grey text in your website! It’s as simple as that.
And if visiting a site hurts your eyes… don’t visit that site. The end.
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Well the majority of responders, in this thread, have claimed that it looks better. But not one of them cites their customers’ or clients’ feedback – or better yet, a double-blind usability study.
So yes, this is answered to my satisfaction until actual scientific evidence is obtained.
Actually the majority of responders cite a better visual experience for the visitor. This is not for some cool or trendy look it’s for visibility hence usability.
Not true, at all. What thread are you reading?
Here are all the quotes from the first page of this thread:
“is generally considered to be too high a contrast…”
“Personally, I just go with what looks ‘right’…”
“ill adjust the contrast till it just looks easy on the eyes…”
“My site has a dark grey background colour…”
“For me, and as others have noted…”
“I haven’t had any problems with contrast on sitepoint…”
“I find any shade of gray darker…”
“I agree on #333333 is perfectly readable…”
“I think grey text on white backgrounds is fine…”
“The reason dark grey is chosen over black as mentioned is because of to sharp…”
“I think that some people think that a clean-style means blending all colors…”
“That’s what I think at least…”
“I find it perfectly fine,…”
“I agree with others that, against a white background…”
“I got sick of the letters burning into my retinas…”
“I find it interesting that the majority of people here…”
“I also find black text on an off-white background or grey text…”
Not ONE cited any opinion from users or any hard data.
Face it, this fad has no justification except in the minds of "designers".easy on the eyes that is all…
I have no problems at all reading various shades of grey text on a white background, and my vision is not 20/20. But imo, it’s a subjective experience.
Perhaps we are at odds due to comprehension of the English language. I have commented beside each of the quotes you posted indicating whether they are for usability or stylistic taste. Half of your quotes are incomplete so it’s hard to determine what they mean.
6 - Went with Usability
2 - Are clearly Style
9 - Are fragments that don’t have enough text to determine.
“is generally considered to be too high a contrast…” Usability
“Personally, I just go with what looks ‘right’…” Style
“ill adjust the contrast till it just looks easy on the eyes…” Could be either easy on the eyes indicates to me Usability.
“My site has a dark grey background colour…” N/A
“For me, and as others have noted…” Means nothing fragment
“I haven’t had any problems with contrast on sitepoint…” N/A
“I find any shade of gray darker…” N/A
“I agree on #333333 is perfectly readable…” Readability indicates Usability
“I think grey text on white backgrounds is fine…” Could be either but I’ll go with Style
“The reason dark grey is chosen over black as mentioned is because of to sharp…” Usability
“I think that some people think that a clean-style means blending all colors…” N/A
“That’s what I think at least…” Opinion… About grey on white?
“I find it perfectly fine,…” Could be either but I’ll go with Usability
“I agree with others that, against a white background…” Fragment… what’s the rest?
“I got sick of the letters burning into my retinas…” Usability
“I find it interesting that the majority of people here…” N/A Fragment… what’s the rest?
“I also find black text on an off-white background or grey text…” N/A
[quote="MrMr,post:44,topic:4667"]
Not ONE cited any opinion from users or any hard data.
Face it, this fad has no justification except in the minds of "designers".
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Well as noted the justification whether you like it or not, is for usability purposes... None of the above said "Gee, I just think it looks cool". Easy on the eyes isn't describing a guy/girl who just walked in the room. It's describing the text on the screen and how easy it is to read.Even if you prove someone else’s evidence is entirely wrong, that doesn’t relieve you of the duty to base your own opinion on evidence, at least if you want to convince rational people that you are right.
I agree. You also appear to have problems with logic, understanding of science, and staying on point.
As for the partial quotes, they are straight down the thread so there is no excuse but laziness or incompetence for not being able to easily see the full context.
Each quote was complete enough to prove the point I was making: That they are 100% opinion of the poster with no indication that users and customers were consulted.
There are just too many great minds around here. And when I say great minds, I mean "know-it-alls’.
Why do so many people at SP here go so far out of their way to prove another person wrong? Let’s just all agree that it’s okay to disagree and spend time on developing websites to the best of our abilities instead of this whole, my Dad can beat up your Dad :injured: attitude. 
Oh jezz… No you didn’t! This is just too amusing.
Don’t worry Lavinco, it’s all just in the heat of a good debate. MrMr is all worked up and passionate about his opinion. I’m sure he doesn’t really mean I can’t grasp logic or comprehend science… Although, I have yet to see any lab experiments in this thread.
BTW: I thought I did stay on point 
Look, I don’t want to waste time in a pissing war with you but if you’re going to quote people so energetically, how about giving it some context. You came out swinging but you didn’t address the point about the gross number of opinions stating that this is about usability not artistic style. Clearly, competently going through the list of quotes you highlighted with vigor (no laziness here), it becomes evident that the reason most of these designers are using a dark grey like #333 is for legibility and ease on the eyes and that’s the point I was directing your attention to. Sure some people just like the way it looks but the majority appreciate the way dark grey on white makes it easier to read the text. That is by definition, usability. Should we have a poll?
I guess it’s all about contrast. With paper you need the highest contrast you can get because paper reflects light and absorbs some of it in the process. Screens do the opposite because they emit light. When your LCD monitor dies, it’s likely that the back lighting source just needs to be replaced. Don’t forget my example of a monitor with a white page lighting a room versus a piece of ultra bright writing weight paper not doing such a good job of lighting the room. (A little bit of science for ya ;)) When you design for the web you have to get away from what works in print. You’ll note that many sites in an attempt to soften the contrast use an off white against black or very dark grey text. It’s to achieve the same result… Ease of reading.
None the less you already seem to be set in your opinion so this is probably falling on deaf ears. We’ll just have to agree to disagree.
Off Topic:
BTW: I have been involved in usability testing. One of the sites I helped develop about six years ago went through months of usability testing and although the site has gone through several design revisions since we built it, the darkest text on white is still #333.
Did it involve test persons with visual disabilities ?
If not … you’re still not making your point.
If you follow the Luminosity Colour Contrast Ratio Analyser
#000 on #fff gives you a contrast ratio of 21.00:1 (AAA)
#555 on #fff gives you a contrast ratio of 7.46:1 (AAA)
Sitepoint’s #222 on #F9FAF9 gives you a contrast ratio of 15.21:1 (AAA)
As you can see you have a lot of choice in the colors & contrast while still be keeping an AAA rating.
Most designers here agreed that the design of dark grey on white is nicer then black on white. (fact …)
The only accessibility rules I’ve seen here mention the contrast ratio
Higher contrast (black on white) is probably better accessibility wise, then a slightly lower contrast (dark grey on white).
But as with all things on Webdesign, we have to make choises, based on different aspects. (usability, accessibility, information design, visual design, branding, etc …)
As long as the designer keeps a good contrast ratio, I don’t see any problem in using slightly lower contrasts for text. (You have a lot of playground with this (#000 –> #555))
If you take every usability & accessibility rule too strict (maximum values) you are too limited in design decisions, & all sites would resemble more. It’s the job of the designer to find the best average of all aspects of web design.
Except, all these people ARE users & customers of many other sites, and constitutes a fairly decent sample size, I’d say, and this thread could easily count as a study into the subject, with the majority opinion of those surveyed (ie, users of this website, who also use other websites and know a bit about usability etc) being that grey text on a white background is easier on the eye, and not difficult to read.
There is your scientific study & data.
You pasted links about people ‘making up’ a problem when it comes to nut allergies, yet that is exactly what you are doing here - inventing a ‘problem’ of grey text on a white background, and the only evidence I’ve seen you paste is the opinion of Jakob Nielson, who mentioned it once on that page in passing, and is still only the opinion of one bloke. Compare that to the majority opinion on here going against your view.
No it’s not a scientific study at all, you have really biased results because
- most people on this thread are active in the web-industry & can’t be taken as your average website user.
- you still have a “fear” factor on professional fora, real novice users mostly read a thread & won’t reply on it –> which means that the users who replied on this thread don’t even represent the average Sitepoint user.
- not even 1% of all websites has the same primary user base (developers, designers, …) as Sitepoint has.
- …
On the other hand, Most recommendations by Jakob Nielsen are based on real tests where he actually observes users. Not only based on what they say, but on how they act (big difference). 99% of what he writes is based on study results, not on his own opinion & he carefully selects his test persons
But like mentioned before … you have to deal with all aspects of webdesign. Accessibility is only a part of it, design is another aspect that needs to be taken into account to have a successful website.
It’s not because you make the best aerodynamic car, that it will sell (it could look really ugly because of aerodynamic optimizations)
This discussion is pretty useless, because we’re talking about a 2-5 % less effectiveness (dark grey vs black) for a user group that doesn’t even reach 1% of all internet users.
I agree that dark grey on white is easier on the eyes, but I have had the same issues with the original poster about some sites. The problem is that the grey they use is not dark enough, and yes, it is very hard to read. I have left many sites because I was tired of straining my eyes trying to read something that didn’t have enough contrast.
It’s not quite that simple, I’m afraid. High contrast is essential for people with low vision. The poorer your eye-sight, the more contrast you need. So far so well.
But there are other disabilities where high contrast can be a disadvantage. For instance, users with certain types of dyslexia find it more difficult to read high contrast text like black on white. They often prefer pastel shades, like blue on pale yellow or black (or dark grey) on pale green.
Accessibility is multi-faceted; in many cases what improves accessibility for one group will also benefit others, but there are instances where different disabilities have conflicting needs.
Here is some customer/client feedback from people using websites:
http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200608/light_text_on_dark_background_vs_readability/#comment45 - For a lot of people like myself who are dyslexic, the standard black on white is of too high a contrast to be able to read properly
http://www.e-bility.com/articles/dyslexia.php - Common problems experienced by individuals with dyslexia when using the Internet include… poor contrast backgrounds (either too low or too high)
http://www.joedolson.com/articles/2006/08/on-the-readability-of-inverted-color-schemes/#comment-16763 - I have more trouble reading black on white BECAUSE of the higher contrast
One thing that has occurred to me, as a result of reading/scanning lots of stuff about this very topic is that (a) I do find stark black-on-white more of a strain, but (b) what makes more of a difference is the amount of spacing and leading. Some pages have text that is quite large - larger than I would prefer, but not excessive - but there is so little space between the lines that at first sight it just appears to be an impenetrable block. A slightly larger line-height does wonders for increasing the legibility of text.
Here is some customer/client feedback from people using websites:
http://www.456bereastreet.com/archiv...ity/#comment45 - For a lot of people like myself who are dyslexic, the standard black on white is of too high a contrast to be able to read properly
http://www.e-bility.com/articles/dyslexia.php - Common problems experienced by individuals with dyslexia when using the Internet include… poor contrast backgrounds (either too low or too high)
http://www.joedolson.com/articles/20…#comment-16763 - I have more trouble reading black on white BECAUSE of the higher contrast
One thing that has occurred to me, as a result of reading/scanning lots of stuff about this very topic is that (a) I do find stark black-on-white more of a strain, but (b) what makes more of a difference is the amount of spacing and leading. Some pages have text that is quite large - larger than I would prefer, but not excessive - but there is so little space between the lines that at first sight it just appears to be an impenetrable block. A slightly larger line-height does wonders for increasing the legibility of text.
excellent reading there
text readability is a whole subject of its own.
and ill also say the same…
designers love to use low contrasts because for them its easier to read and looks prettier, for people with color some degree of color blindness or monitor problems this might not be so useful.
but the mayority of the public seems to likes it (when questioning), so it brings more business, so more designers do it…
they also tend to use extremely small text sizes, but that can be fixed using ctrl + +
makes me thing, firefox needs a text contrast amplifying plugin.
here is a example of how eyes can hurt from over contrast
can you show some examples of pages you have problems with.
I learned as a general rule to use 130-150% leading (mostly 140%), but I have no idea if that also counts of people with dyslexia or other visual problems.
If it really was a fact you could provide some evidence for it instead of just a claim.
Even so, if everyone agrees the world is flat does that make it flat?